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The TSR Palestinian Society

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I'm probably the only one then?

There's enough debate and discussion in D&D, where it is mainly anti-Palestinian and pro-Zionist. Most people are sick of it because of that. If there's somewhere which isn't, it's meant to be here. It's not.
Reply 1581
I don't see why I couldn't be a member. I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, who live in great poverty and have an appalling quality of life, and too believe they are entitled to a homeland. That homeland, however, would be parallel to Israel.

Supporting the plight of the Palestinians doesn't immediatly preclude taking a critical approach to their actions.
I'm just sick of a few people. Forget I said anything :smile:
I have a question;

if Zionists are legally allowed to fight for Israel every year in the IDF, allowed to kill innocent Palestinian children, be welcomed back as war heroes and bring back the hatred they have fostered, should Muslims then be allowed to serve with Palestinian fighters?
Also, I'm not too sure on this, so could someone shed some light on it?

If you go to fight for a non-British force - Israeli, Palestinian, or any other - you forfeit your right to British citizenship?

True or false? =s
Reply 1585
if Zionists are legally allowed to fight for Israel every year in the IDF, allowed to kill innocent Palestinian children, be welcomed back as war heroes and bring back the hatred they have fostered, should Muslims then be allowed to serve with Palestinian fighters?
Well Israelis serve in the IDF as part of their national service. It's not a question of being allowed to, they have to by law, or otherwise do some form of community service (I'm sure Helz could shed more light on this). However, that is beside the point. The IDF, as has been pointed out a million times before, is the legitamite army of a legitimate state as recognised by many countries and international institutions, including the UN. Moreover, the IDF as an organisation, does not deliberately target civilians of any country. Compare that to the numerous militias who operate in Palestine, none of whom constitute a legitiamate army, and all of whom target civilians, and you'll see the comparison is worth very little.

If you go to fight for a non-British force - Israeli, Palestinian, or any other - you forfeit your right to British citizenship?

True or false? =s
False. You can fight in any foreign militia as long as it does not target Britain, her civilians, or her interests. Ever heard of the French Foreign Legion? It's composed entirely of foreign volunteers.
Uh oh, what are you planning furry ?
Carl
Well Israelis serve in the IDF as part of their national service. It's not a question of being allowed to, they have to by law, or otherwise do some form of community service (I'm sure Helz could shed more light on this).

100% Carl!

After one leaves school at 18, army service is compulsory for three years. If (for a number of reasons) one does not/cannot enter the army, a form of community service (called Sherut Leumi) is done instead - there's a wide variety of jobs one can take up in order to fulfil this. Sherut Leumi volunteers get all the same benefits as the soldiers (i.e. skip queues, discounts on most things etc.), it's just another way to help serve the country.
Been a long time since i posted in here. Feels good to be back.


the_chauffeur
Uh oh, what are you planning furry ?


Something kosher.
It's been too long since I last posted on this thread. So here it is. Enjoy!

From the looks of it, its been the usual. When will they learn, when will they learn. *shakes head*
Helzerel
Give me an example of a recent incident where an action taken by Israel was condemned internationally, by a large number of Western countries and deemed as "terrorism." Then I'll comment with pleasure. :smile:
Iran, Venezuela ~ aside, who'd dare? US support.

Helzerel
As I already stated, I'm interested to hear your personal opinion.

Based on that conclusive statement - may it be inferred that (regardless of motives and their aims), you condemn the methods employed by organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah?
I've already said that My personal opinion is that all attacks on innocent civilians is wrong. This includes suicide bombings and attacks on innocent civilians.

Furthermore, the same way as you understand Israel's militiary attacks, the same way we understand why Hezbullah/Hamas attack Israel the way they do. Now, you're probably going to say 'yes but Israel don't attack innocent civilians'. I can't change your mind about that, it seems most people are stuck with the idea that Israel don't attack innocent civilians.

However, there have been many links posted in this society of innocent Palestinians being killed (children, even) and we have all condemned this and it has been discussed that those Israeli soldiers have been put on trial and charged.

So yes, Israeli soldiers do attack innocent civilians - regardless of whether they've been charged or not. I bet you'd say it doesn't happen often. There have been quite a few cases of blatant attacks on innocent civilians, like shooting little girls in the head.

These blatant cases - you cannot argue with, because the soldiers have been charged for doing wrong. Correct. So we agree that innocent civilians do get targerted by Israeli soldiers. Can you specifically reply to this paragraph please? Just to make sure you agree.

Blatant attacks are one thing (like I mentioned above) and then there's incidents like in Qana, Beit Hanoun - where it's always up for debate. There's no convincing you or others that it was a deliberate attack, and vice-versa. Since it's up for debate, look at it from the Palestinian/Lebanon point of view. What are they thinking? They're convinced that those attacks were deliberate, just the same way you're convinced it wasn't.

So, the same way that you understand Israeli militiary offensive, the same way it is understandable from the Palestinian point of view for Hamas' attacks, as they see Israel's attack on civilians being deliberate.

No matter how much the IDF say those attacks were 'accidents' as they don't want to take the blame, Palestinians are convinced it wasn't and there's no changing their mind. This is why you can understand Palestinians firing back at Israeli civilians. Remember, they think the IDF attacks on civilians are deliberate. So they'll do it back. Some say it's to give Israelis a feel of how it's like to be Palestinian. "To balance it out."

In conclusion to my personal opinion, Hamas' offensive is wrong if it's attacking innocent people. But I understand why do it, the same way you understand Israeli's attacks. You can say that I'm wrong to understand why Hamas do it, and I'll point the finger right back at you saying you are wrong to understand Israel's attacks.

Helzerel
That is all very well, and a person in such a circumstance, other factors permitting might indeed have a just reason not to be so pro-Israeli. However, with practically all suicide bombers this is not the case and the example you have given has been taken out of context.
Fair enough, I don't think I can ever give such a good account, not being there, and all. You could watch the video in my sig and tell me your comments on it. That's if you have some spare time, I can understand if you don't. Don't be scared, I don't think it'll turn you into an anti-Zionist!

Helzerel
Suicide bombers are accorded the status of a matyr, of a hero, thus encouraging teenagers to emulate their example. After a suicide bombing, guns are fired in Lebanese streets by civilans in celebration, and there have been reliable, third party reports of Palestinians flocking to the home of a suicide bomber to offer up their "congratulations."

With regard to the scenario you specified - it is generally factually incorrect. Whilst the public are led to believe that suicide bombers come from the background you described, many tend to come from well-educated, middle-class homes where they have been brought up in a nest of seething hatred towards Israel and the Jews.
In fact, one mother knew of her son's selection for a suicide terrorist mission a month in advance. As he left to attack Israelis, she told him, "Take care my son, remember God, repeat the verses, pay attention to everything you see, concentrate on the task ahead, pick your moment. May God bless you with success and may you be granted the martyrdom you deserve." (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,176,00.html)

Bombers' families also receive approximately $15,000 from Iraq through Hamas, as well as food, blankets, and an all-expense-paid trip to Mecca for the annual pilgrimage.

A Palestinian public health worker even admitted that results from a survey from Palestinian universities showed the students who committed terrorist attacks to be the "best and the brightest."

Quite a difference from the picture you painted Farhan. :smile:
Pretty interesting stuff there. From the 'picture I painted', it was just one example out of many. I didn't say most suicide bombers are like that, or anything similar.

What's to say suicide bombers don't come from poor families, with no homes? What's to say that the majority of suicide bombers aren't the homeless, traumatized ones? Unless you have some figures.

Motivation for violent protests among children "lies in the very root of the conflict, in the predominant macro social, economic and political issues defining their lives" (Cohen & Goodwin-Gill, 1994:23). The outlook for Palestinian children under Israeli occupation "is grim as children's rights continue to be violated.. their reality is poverty, poor education, inadequate healthcare, and fear for their loved ones. The occupation, the tanks, the checkpoints and the Israeli soldiers have incarcerated their dreams". (Halileh, 2002) The UN Special Rapporteur reports that Palestinian children have turned "increasingly aggressive as a psychological consequence of the constant shelling, gunfire, presence of a hostile occupying army". (UN Special Rapporteur, 2002: para 42). UNICEF records that 'The psychological and social impact on this conflict on children in the Middle East is incalculable. Traumatic events like death or injury to family and friends, house to house searches, and the humiliating round-up and detention of fathers and brothers is causing irreparable damage to children's confidence in adults. Children come to accept violence as a good method for resolving problems and all hopes for the future fade' (UNICEF, 2002)

A series of general population epidemiological surveys have demonstrated significant emotional and behavioural problems among Palestinian children, particularly high prevalence rates of post-traumatic stress order (PSTD) and other related mental health problems. (Punamaki & Suleiman 1990, Baker 1990, Qouta & El Sarraj 1992, Khamis 1993, Elbedour et al, 1993. Gabrino & Kostelny 1996). Thabet & Vostanis (1999) found that 72.8% of the Palestinian children exposed to war trauma experience have PSTD.

UNICEF reports that "available date indicates the lives, behaviour and attitudes of Palestinian children have changed dramatically since the onset of the current conflict. These incluse nightmares, bed-wetting, insomnia, and irregular sleeping patterns. Fear is also common - fear of darkness, fear of sleeping along, leaving the house, strangers, loud noises and sudden movements. Children find it hard to concentrate. Some are more anxious and irritable. Children are experience psychosomatic symptons, such as headaches, stomach cramps and skin problems. And others are withdrawing from friends and family, rebelling or becoming aggressive themselves." (UNICEF, 2001).

While most children are conscious of their vulnerability, others react more aggressively. Dr Eyad el-Sarraj who heads the Gaza community Mental Health Programme explains "To get rid of fear you engage in it, to get rid of the fear of dying you engage death. These children are playing an exciting and addictive game with death, and addictive is just what it is." (Brittain, 2001). A Palestinian NGO, LAW notes that "is is not uncommon in the Palestinian territories to witness Palestinian children playing a game where pretend they have been killed". (LAW, 2002). I rest my case.
















I look forward to reading your reply.
My Interpal mug and wristband. I like :smile:.



Reading the nonsense on this thread I've never felt more glad to call myself a friend of Israel and a Zionist.

I can't help but wonder at what the fascination with Israelis and Palestinians is for the 'Palestine Society'. I don't deny the ills that the Palestinians have suffered, however, I happen to hold the Arab states significantly responsible for the Palestinian refugee problem rather than Israel. However, why is it that those demanding boycotts of Israel are silent on the far worse wrongdoings that happen in China and Sudan? And what is their fascination with singling out Israel? Why do they single out Israel and ignore so many other countries? I'd like to think the fact that Israel happens to be the world's only Jewish state is purely coincidental. Unfortunately given the actions of the likes of MPACUK and many of those in 'Respect' I would seem to be wrong in believing it coincidental.
justfurry

Pretty interesting stuff there. From the 'picture I painted', it was just one example out of many. I didn't say most suicide bombers are like that, or anything similar.

What's to say suicide bombers don't come from poor families, with no homes? What's to say that the majority of suicide bombers aren't the homeless, traumatized ones? Unless you have some figures.


Good point. The whole issue of suicide bombers being the best and the brightest could show other psychological factors. The factor that they feel helpless in terms of the political aspects being played out, yet they feel like they should be doing something.

It reminds me of the idea of keeping man in his place. And there could be a whole philosophical issue to this. But, I doubt thats the type of thing I would want to debate on an internet forum with people who show contempt for posts that I have seen as having good solid arguments.


And I still believe the issue of suicide cannot just be viewed in terms of martyrdom, its more than that. Suicide is a whole issue of its own, which is still difficult to understand without politics incorporated in it. For anyone to put it simply into black and white, is either fooling themselves, or deliberately trying to change what is being said.




I also look forward to Helzerels reply.
nighthawk
Reading the nonsense on this thread I've never felt more glad to call myself a friend of Israel and a Zionist.

I can't help but wonder at what the fascination with Israelis and Palestinians is for the 'Palestine Society'. I don't deny the ills that the Palestinians have suffered, however, I happen to hold the Arab states significantly responsible for the Palestinian refugee problem rather than Israel. However, why is it that those demanding boycotts of Israel are silent on the far worse wrongdoings that happen in China and Sudan? And what is their fascination with singling out Israel? Why do they single out Israel and ignore so many other countries? I'd like to think the fact that Israel happens to be the world's only Jewish state is purely coincidental. Unfortunately given the actions of the likes of MPACUK and many of those in 'Respect' I would seem to be wrong in believing it coincidental.


Which members are you referring to? There are many members on here who dont believe in the boycott.

I think you should start a Chechnya society.

Setting an example is always the best way right? And, I think its the history around Israel-Palestine conflict thats made it what it is. And seeing the rapid development of Israel next to Palestine effects it a lot. Conflicts that happen internally in a country arent always the us vs them idea. You get a lot of Zionists on D&D. This is clearly a reaction to that.

It's called da da da *drum roll* ... cause and effect.
I'll reply but it might take a while. :smile:
:coma:
Is Helzerel still thinking ? Give her some time, dude.
Omg..I completely forgot all about this thread - I'm so sorry, poor excuse but I've been caught up in my learning recently - putting in an average of 15hours every day, from 8.30am until 11.30pm or so.

I'll hopefully reply in a few days.
justfurry
I've already said that My personal opinion is that all attacks on innocent civilians is wrong. This includes suicide bombings and attacks on innocent civilians.

Glad to hear so. :smile:

Furthermore, the same way as you understand Israel's militiary attacks, the same way we understand why Hezbullah/Hamas attack Israel the way they do. Now, you're probably going to say 'yes but Israel don't attack innocent civilians'. I can't change your mind about that, it seems most people are stuck with the idea that Israel don't attack innocent civilians.

However, there have been many links posted in this society of innocent Palestinians being killed (children, even) and we have all condemned this and it has been discussed that those Israeli soldiers have been put on trial and charged.

So yes, Israeli soldiers do attack innocent civilians - regardless of whether they've been charged or not. I bet you'd say it doesn't happen often. There have been quite a few cases of blatant attacks on innocent civilians, like shooting little girls in the head.

These blatant cases - you cannot argue with, because the soldiers have been charged for doing wrong. Correct. So we agree that innocent civilians do get targerted by Israeli soldiers. Can you specifically reply to this paragraph please? Just to make sure you agree.

Which cases? Give me the sources and links and I'll read up on each incident lest I comment on something completely absurd.
Don't just refer me back to the society 'coz I'm awful at using the search engine on TSR, I think it has a personal vendetta against me. I blame Carl myself. :p:

Blatant attacks are one thing (like I mentioned above) and then there's incidents like in Qana, Beit Hanoun - where it's always up for debate. There's no convincing you or others that it was a deliberate attack, and vice-versa. Since it's up for debate, look at it from the Palestinian/Lebanon point of view. What are they thinking? They're convinced that those attacks were deliberate, just the same way you're convinced it wasn't.

Beit Hanoun.
The distance between the target (Qassam rocket launch sites) and the civiilans was a mere 600metres. Israel ordered a cease fire into the Gaza strip until the investigation over the tragedy was completed. The investigation revealed that it was due to a malfunctioning thingiewotsit technical garble which Israel immediately admitted - they didn't try to cover it up. Please don't be foolish and suggest (as some have) that Israel deliberately their own equipment in order to kill some random civilians. Israel then evacuated the injured Palestinian citizens to an Israeli hospital for treatment - why would they expend their precious resources when they have their own to care for if it was deliberate?

May I point out that during the time Israel was focussing on Beit Hanoun, they thwarted a female suicide bomber (who blew herself up anyway, thankfully only lightly injuring one solider), hit 9 rocket launching cells, uncovered large amounts of weaponry including rocket launchers, anti-tank missile launchers, grenades, explosive devices, AK-47 assault rifles, various ammunitions types, observation equipment and more, and dozens of vehicles passed into Beit Hanoun, carrying food, medical teams, repairmen and additional supplies in coordination with the DCO.

So, the same way that you understand Israeli militiary offensive, the same way it is understandable from the Palestinian point of view for Hamas' attacks, as they see Israel's attack on civilians being deliberate.
No matter how much the IDF say those attacks were 'accidents' as they don't want to take the blame, Palestinians are convinced it wasn't and there's no changing their mind. This is why you can understand Palestinians firing back at Israeli civilians. Remember, they think the IDF attacks on civilians are deliberate. So they'll do it back. Some say it's to give Israelis a feel of how it's like to be Palestinian. "To balance it out."

100% agreed. Now, let's look at the Palestinian propaganda machine as to why these people believe that Israel should be 'wiped off the face of the earth.'
e.g. the 40 odd official Palestinian children's textbooks and the television - none of which is an indiciment to peace. Quite the contrary in fact.

In conclusion to my personal opinion, Hamas' offensive is wrong if it's attacking innocent people. But I understand why do it, the same way you understand Israeli's attacks. You can say that I'm wrong to understand why Hamas do it, and I'll point the finger right back at you saying you are wrong to understand Israel's attacks.

Nuhuh. You got me all wrong Farhan.

I understand why some Palestinians would be led to hate Israel and the Jews if they've been born and bred into a nest of vipers that both blatently and subtley poison their mind, nurturing them on a diet of bloodlust, 'matyrdom', wantonless murder and incitement to hatred.
However, this by no means condones their actions, but in the scenario described above I can understand why they may be not so pro-Israel.

Fair enough, I don't think I can ever give such a good account, not being there, and all. You could watch the video in my sig and tell me your comments on it. That's if you have some spare time, I can understand if you don't. Don't be scared, I don't think it'll turn you into an anti-Zionist!

Doesn't work on this computer I'm afraid - no sound/flash/shockwave/video watching stuff. Sorry.




That's half of your post done. I'll reply to the other half when I next get time. :smile:

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